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When To Call... What To Say If She Flakes... How To Finally Handle It!


posted by Donovan at 10:35 AM

This is one of the best posts I've read in the last few months. It helps clears up so many issues I've personally had recently. It comes from the "King" of Social Analysis, Tyler Durden of Real Social Dynamics:

Enjoy, and post your thoughts about it!

The Real Social Dynamics Crew

I get a phone call from an ex-girlfriend that I'm still close with. We still hook-up, but I value her more as someone who I can talk to now. I think that may change when I stop travelling and I'm around more. For some reason, she's an anomaly who is very self aware of her tendencies. That is, as opposed to most girls I meet, who only offer useless socially conditioned rhetoric, whenever you ask them about male/female interaction.

Over the course of the conversation, the topic of dating comes up. I ask, "What does it mean when you meet up with a guy, have a great time, maybe even kiss, but then when he calls you don't go out with him? Like you make up excuses and don't return his calls."

She replies, "Well there's this guy, Chris, who I met the other night. I really liked him. I offered him my number. He called me the other night, and asked me to meet up. I told him 'You know what, I think I actually will. Let me call you back.' I really wanted to meet up. For some reason I never did though.

"The thing is, that I can feel the emotion that I felt when I gave him my number, at the time that we're talking on the phone. But the second we hang up, poof, it's gone. Also, I actually have scheduling issues. It's not like this is someone who I'm already friends with, who I'd give priority to. This is some new person that I barely know.

"If he happens to catch me at the right time, I'd go out with him. But I won't take the time or go out of my way to return his calls. I don't call guys."

I reply, "So theoretically, you're sufficiently attracted to this guy that under different circumstances you could have wound up sleeping with him. Or even gotten into a five year relationship, for all you know. But just because of ill luck in
timing and because he actually believed that you'd call him back, now you'll never see him again.

"Is this weird to you at all?"

She replies, "Nope. It makes perfect sense. I don't care either way, because I have guys available to me at all times so it's my last priority. That guy was cool and I thought he was cute, and maybe I'll see him again later or something. I also just
give out my number to be social most of the time. It doesn't mean I have any intentions at all."

I reply, "He could use that opportunity to continue the interaction to generate attraction down the line, no?"

She replies, "It's happened before. Really I just don't want to meet new guys. I like being social when I'm out. But if I'm attracted to a guy, I'll probably flake on him. I've already slept with enough guys (she's nineteen years old, and has been
with five guys), I don't want to sleep with anymore right now.

"When I was with my two friends hanging out at these guys' house, we made each other promise not to let each other do anything because the guys were cute."

I reply, "OK that makes sense. What if he's really good looking? Does that make a difference? Also, do you think that when he calls it's better for him to chat you for a while, so you can be reminded of why you gave him your number in the
first place? Or should he just call and immediately try to make plans? Also, do you think it's better to call you out on your bullshit in a funny way if you flake?"

She answers, "Looks means nothing when it comes to that stuff. I know within seconds if I could or couldn't sleep with a guy. I knew within seconds that we'd have sex, the night that we met."

I reply, "Are you serious? I don't think that my looks are on a level that you'd want to sleep with me the second you saw me."

She replies, "True. But it's in your energy. The way you come across. I can't explain it. As long as you're not morbidly disfigured your looks won't be the main thing I judge on. Girls all say they want looks, but they wind up with guys who aren't hot all the time. There's so many guys that I think are so hot, and I sit there waiting for them to talk and I'm all excited, and they're like "hi" with some stupid line, and they sound retarded and act weird. It's such a letdown, and most hot guys are like that."

I reply, "Do you think the 25 point list I showed you has to do with that kind of stuff?"

She replies, "Yes, definitely. Also stuff that you don't have in there, like just your voice and facial expressions."

I reply, "OK, what about the other stuff with calling girls out on bratty behaviour? Like confronting her for flaking?"

She replies, "Well if a guy tries to argue with me, I'll just hang up on him. He would have to do it in a totally funny way that doesn't make me upset or annoyed."

I reply, "Last night, I call up this flaky girl, and say 'You're so annoying to get a hold of! It's so cute though, you're so confused and disorganized. It's like you're my bratty little sister. I don't even think I'm attracted to you anymore, I just want to take care of you and help you get organized like a big brother.'... Then she started giggling and said 'No no no.. I'll meet up with you, don't think of me like that!'.. Do you think that was a good approach?"

She replies, "Yeah definitely. That was funny and if you did that to me, I'd be like "Oh yeah, well maybe I WILL meet up with you then!"

I reply, "OK awesome. So do you think it's good to talk for like 15 minutes to remind her of what she gave you her number for in the first place, and then go for a meet?"

She replies, "Probably longer than that actually. I'm not sure. For you maybe less time because you do this stuff. But most guys have no chance unless they're lucky because I'm either bored or looking for something at that point in time. I guess
their best bet is to try to talk to me as much as possible, so I become friends with them."


A few thoughts on this.

First, guys will attribute flaking to a lack of attraction. I disagree with this line of thinking. Girls go into state, and forget about it down the line. In fact, most of what occurs while a girl's buying temperature is escalated will be
forgotten by the girl. They become disassociative and cognitive dissonance kicks in.

Have you ever noticed that whatever drama happens the night you meet a girl will be forgotten if you wind up dating? It's because nothing that happens while she's in state counts to her. That's also why we don't bother worrying about whether or
not a girl has a boyfriend. She becomes disassociative when she's attracted, so it's not relevant to the interaction.

That being the case, there are a few tendencies that guys in the scene have, that I think are wrong-headed:

1- Calling a girl on her bullshit for flaking in a way that isn't cute or fun, or in a way that sounds angry or like you actually care. In my experience, the only girls who respond to that are the types who respond to this sort of behaviour in general, which is a certain type of girl that is not the majority.

2- Putting the girl in a position where she has to call you back or its over.

3- Refusing to follow up with girls who don't make it easy to meet up with them again by, and thinking that you're somehow 'NEXTing' them.

4- Thinking that all value is strictly conveyed in person, and that it is a bad idea to talk for a long time on the phone because it makes you look needy. Not that you *need* to call long. But rather, call as long as you feel like. Calibrate so as to hang up before she gets bored, but enjoy the interaction as long as you want. It's just that much more comfort building, and is only taking you that much closer to the endzone.

5- Giving up if the girl stands you up, because you think she isn't attracted.

For me, there are a few things that I'll do when it comes to the phone. First, if a girl flakes me, I'll tease her on it in a funny way. I never get angry or look genuinely upset about it. I never focus on reasoning with them logically.

I also don't give up if a girl doesn't call back. At the same time, if they say they'll call back I'll say I don't get upset like I know they won't. I'll just say "OK cool." and give them the chance. But then if they don't call back when they said they would, I'll call back a bit later and just re-initiate the conversation as if I don't even remember that they didn't follow up.

Now when it comes to the idea that "if a girl disrespects me I'll NEXT her", that isn't my frame at all. To me, you can't NEXT a girl who you haven't slept with. In my view, that's just her NEXT'ing you. It's only a girl that I'm already with that I'll do this to if she annoys me or crosses my boundaries.

For a girl I haven't slept with yet though, I have a certain beliefs. She owes me nothing. It's all a game. No relationship or connection exists between us until we've been together physically, because she reserves the right to walk away at any point. I have no emotional ties to the interaction, and I have no ego about it. I just do what I think will work.

I also believe that there is a fundamental problem with many of the social ideas about how often and when to call. For example, there exists an idea in society that waiting to call will create scarcity and value, as well as increase anticipation.

To me this is very wrong thinking. Notice that it stems from the fact that 99% of pickups in society are SOCIAL CIRCLE pickups. So for that kind of phone number, you'd have probably had the tension building for weeks or months before the number was exchanged. Of course waiting is better - it's been building for months. But for girls you met on a cold approach, that is not the case.

I know what world the girls live in. They live in the same world that I do. The world where you meet tons of girls (in their case its guys), and tons of them like you and tons of them validate you. When I get home from a club, I literally cannot remember the names or faces of girls I met.

To be more accurate, I literally barely remember the names or faces of the last three girls I had sex with. I just got off the phone with a girl that I was with less than twelve hours ago, and Jeffy and I had to think for five minutes about what her name was before I returned her call.

And I LIKED that girl.

I remember she was a hot brunette around my height, and seemed cool. But that's about it.

For girls, it's the same. They can barely remember anyone they meet, because they meet so many people. To make matters even worse, they become disassociative while they're in the club. Many of them have even had had a few drinks, but you couldn't

Of course, you can do daytime pickup. But regardless, the girls still have access to many other good looking alpha guys the second they want it.

Most guys don't even realize that it is very rare that an attractive girl is not getting laid by one or more other guys. That's even when they're single. They're still sleeping with their ex-boyfriends, or some player on the side.

It's not like a hot girl is NOT getting laid, anymore than you wouldn't be if you had the instant option. So when you're calling, they are about as motivated to meet up with you as you would be to drive across town to a good Italian restaurant, when you're eating a good bowl of Chinese right in front of you.

Sure, the Italian would be great. But you have an unlimited Chinese buffet sitting right here. Why would you be bothered?

The girls don't get that needy feeling that the guys get. They are always validated, because they've been in the club at least twice a week, getting validated by all the guys complimenting them and buying them drinks.

When it comes to how I handle the phone, I don't worry that if I call back multiple times it will make me look bad. Because I have high social value, and don't subcommunicate any neediness, I can call as much as I want.

In fact, I'll call two or three times in a row if she's not picking up, back to back. I'll call back whenever I feel like it, because it's obvious that I'm amusing myself and that I don't really care. I could take it or leave it, and I'm just having fun.

I'll call and shoot the shit, and then hassle her until she meets up. Whatever.

I also combat excuses by adding in phone freezeouts, and following them with playful teasing and some semi-logical stuff like "Hey, come chill for a few minutes. If you're bored, take off and we'll catch up later."

My goal is to have the girl on the phone ASAP. I don't want them to have any time to forget that we have plans to meet up. I'll call girls' cellphones even as I'm leaving the club and going for afterbar food. I'll have pulled a girl from the club to an afterhours food place, and run off to the bathroom to call all my numbers, while my wing occupies our set (I have a habit of pulling a two set with my wing for same night, and take numbers from the choice girls in larger sets).

Whether I reach them or not, I'll call them again as soon as I wake up the next afternoon, and get the ball rolling. I'm not thinking to make them wonder if I'll call or not, because I know they could care less. Not because they aren't attracted. Rather, because there are many attractive prospects on their plates, and regardless of my game, I'm one of many.

The difference between me and them though, is that I'll get her and they won't, because I'll play it properly.

If a girl stands me up, I'll call her and make fun of her for it. I'll hassle her to meet up. I'll say I'm still there and she had better get her ass down there, because she's my little sister and if she doesn't get down here I don't know what trouble she'll get into if she doesn't have me there to supervise her.

I don't care either if she wants her friends to come or not. All of this means nothing to me. I just want to see her again, because I'll get her no matter what she throws at me.

The difference between a day1 and a day2 is that she's there to see *me*. So she has no excuse not to come back somewhere private if we're spending time together. And from there I can escalate.

So let's summarize.

In my experience, I've found it best to get away from the idea that you're trying to make the girl fall in love with you before you hook up with her.

Focus on just showing you're a cool guy who she has the potential to be attracted to, and then make it your only priority to see her again. Don't worry about your value over the phone. You can't wreck a pickup from over a phone line. That makes no sense.

If you're the kind of guy who she's attracted to, then just act congruent to that over the phone. Call her and get her accustomed and accepting that you're in her life now. Make plans, and if she is flaky don't worry about it, and be playfully persistent by chatting her more, not by talking non-stop about the flaking. Meet, have fun, connect, isolate, and from there its up to you.. :)

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posted by Donovan at 10:35 AM Dating Advice for Men


Anonymous Zack DeLeon said...

We both know that the subject of calling and flakiness is one of the biggest obstacles men face when they're in the process of increasing their success with women, so feel free to post this. I hope my thoughts will be of some help to our fellow guys. First, however, let me tell you a bit about myself and how far along I am in improving my dating life. I believe it is important to know where a person is coming from before listening to what they think:

My name is Zack. I'm 23 years old. I'm 5 ' 7, skinny, and a decent-looking guy. Like many others, my life was an endless cycle of frustration, failure, and low self-esteem until recently. David DeAngelo's "Double Your Dating" is what helped me change that. I've only been practicing his teachings for 8 months and I haven't yet checked out material from the other big names in the "seduction community", but the improvement has been HUGE. I see women all the time and I can get phone numbers easily. I'm still growing and evolving, so my view on the calling-flaking topic may change in the future (I don't think that even the best eventually master this stuff, you can always get better and life is a continuous learning process); nonetheless, I feel experienced enough to comment.


Many guys fall into the trap of repeated effort with a woman due to a mindset that says "Oh, but this one is interesting" when in reality, the real reason they keep attempting to build a presence in her life or set up a date is BECAUSE she's being distant and evasive. When a woman makes it difficult for me to get in touch or meet with her, I only continue trying if I'm actually interested enough in hanging out with her. I've got more women than I know what to do with and I meet more constantly (not to mention that I also have a life).

Out of the dozens of girls who give me their contact info every week, a few make stronger impressions than the rest. I just don't have time to keep calling every single lady who acts unresponsive, especially if she is not one of the women who triggered a higher level of interest from me when we met. I do what Tyler recommends if my higher level of interest in the woman is genuine, not a result of her being elusive.

A good rule to have when dealing with flaky or hard to get-women is this: Don't apply the "NEXT!" attitude indiscriminately to all the women you meet. If she made enough of an impression on you during that first encounter, don't be a dumbass and dismiss her...get the ball rolling! But if she's one of the girls whom you couldn't even remember, move on! A limitless number of other women are waiting in the wings.


In my experience, I have found that most attractive women don't have regular access to alpha-men who are sexually skilled and understand attraction. Many aren't lucky enough to even run across one. I know so many attractive women who, prior to my having met them, hadn't had sex in over 3 months. The majority of attractive women are bored with men or are "sexually dormant", as DeAngelo would say. Sure, they might be sleeping with their ex-boyfriend, some bad boy, or "a player on the side", and these guys may have "game" or be more physically attractive than you...but men who have it all together, are going somewhere in life, know attraction INSIDE-OUT, and can give women UNBELIEVABLE experiences in the bedroom are RARE.

Attractive women do typically have options, but those "options" are usually average chumps or players with limited skill. Since this is the situation I most often face, not calling too much, not calling too soon, and not spending too much time on the phone works extremely well. Now there are times when I meet a woman who does have many options that include men like me. I don't meet this kind of woman often, and I don't always experience a higher level of interest in her when I do. But assuming I AM specifically interested in meeting with her, I do the things that Tyler advises if she starts flaking or not calling me...and it works.

To surmise: Projecting "scarcity and value" will work on MOST attractive women you'll meet. But if you're interested in meeting with one who has many equally smooth or smoother guys available to her, you have to handle the situation differently. Call as many times as you need to and spend as much time talking to her as you feel comfortable with; just be playful, calm, and indifferent about it, i.e. don't be a wussbag.


I have some news for you: Everything I have said so far is how I USED to view the whole problem of flakiness, unreturned calls, and "women with options."

While dismissing women based on interest-level and judging different situations are still good ideas for newbies, there is a MUCH SIMPLER philosophy you can embrace. In fact, it's so simple that when it first occurred to me a few months ago I slapped myself in the head and thought "I'm so STUPID, why didn't I look at it that way before!"

Here it is in a nutshell:

Stop caring whether or not a woman has options and just focus on BEING THE BEST OPTION. Wow, I know...DUH.

Try to follow me here. Tyler is correct when he says that if a woman with options (good options) doesn't call you or flakes on you, it doesn't mean she isn't attracted you; she just has A LOT of quality men on her plate and you're simply "one of the many." But what you also have to realize is that out of the many skilled and attractive men she has on speed dial, she probably sees one or two of them more often than the rest. Obviously, she likes these guys THE MOST. All the others serve as backup choices when one of the "top two" isn't available.

When you think about that, it becomes clear that attraction is "quantifiable."

Most hot women don't feel attraction AT ALL for almost all the guys in their lives and do feel it for a few of them. Other hot women feel attraction for MOST of the men they know but feel EVEN GREATER ATTRACTION for a small number of those men. Once you understand this, your frame of mind should be simple: Work endlessly on being as attractive as you possibly can; believe that YOU are the best option the women you meet can have.

When you completely dedicate yourself to being a man that no sane woman would "shuffle down the list", guess what...she will ALMOST ALWAYS see you as a guy who deserves priority. If you develop your body language, eye contact, physical presence, voice tone, and social skills to a level that is RIDICULOUS (that's what you've gotta shoot for), all the options a woman might have won't make a difference. Your impression will stand out in her mind.

This idea skyrocketed my success with women. Now I don't "decide" if I want to continue trying to connect with a woman or forget her, I do whatever I want. I know I am the best option and therefore, I can call or not call, keep conversations brief or longer, call often or sparingly, and it doesn't matter! She still feels MORE ATTRACTED to me than to any of her other guys, regardless if they're skilled players or regular chumps.

I very rarely find myself in a situation where the woman I'm interested in hanging out with has one or more guys who are really good options. Those times that I do, I simply know that whoever I'm "competing against" is better at attraction than I am...and then I find these dudes and learn from them!

So there you have it. When a woman with options makes it tough for you, it's not because "she has options"; it's because she has GOOD options who might be better selections over you. Be the best option! When you do this, you'll notice that 99 percent of the'll be the one who gets her.

- Zack

11:56 PM, February 09, 2006  

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